KMLM List

["Boissy, Robert, Springer US" <Robert.Boissy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Building on SERU sounds better. 

CONTU is part of the world of photocopies. SERU is more modern. 

-Bob
Sent from my Blackberry 

----- Original Message -----
From: Selden Lamoureux <selden_lamoureux@xxxxxxxx>
To: david.parker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<david.parker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Boissy, Robert, Springer US
Cc: J.Atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <J.Atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; OPesch@xxxxxxxxx <OPesch@xxxxxxxxx>; 
seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; James Harper 
<jbharper@xxxxxxxx>; lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
CFICKEN@xxxxxxxxxx <CFICKEN@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed Jun 16 09:24:50 2010
Subject: Re: [seruinfo] SERU and ILL

I could see creating a version of SERU for e-books, or at least adding a 
section to SERU that spoke to e-books.  What's missing, of course, is a 
consensus view at the moment.  But we might not be all that far from it.


First thing, I'd like to take a closer look at the part in the CONTU Guidelines 
about copying and lending no more than 6 chapters of a book per life of the 
copyright.  That gives me pause.  Is that a CONTU convention (perhaps not 
widely known or employed) that we could easily overwrite by a SERU guideline, 
or is it more firmly entrenched?  It would be quicker and easier to build on 
SERU rather than convene another CONTU-like workgroup, but I guess that depends 
how large the issue is.

-Selden

>>> "Boissy, Robert, Springer US" <Robert.Boissy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 6/16/2010 9:12 
>>> AM >>>
We are getting close to an informal view on this and would say this has its 
other commercial analogies in how much of an eBook is shown as a free snippet 
on most host services, be they publisher sites or third party host sites.

Does NISO itself need to do some ratifying eventually?

-Bob
Sent from my Blackberry 

----- Original Message -----
From: Selden Lamoureux <selden_lamoureux@xxxxxxxx>
To: David Parker <david.parker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: J.Atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <J.Atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; OPesch@xxxxxxxxx <OPesch@xxxxxxxxx>; 
seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; James Harper 
<jbharper@xxxxxxxx>; Boissy, Robert, Springer US; lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; CFICKEN@xxxxxxxxxx <CFICKEN@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed Jun 16 09:07:22 2010
Subject: Re: [seruinfo] SERU and ILL

Hi David.  Right.  Perhaps something like up to 20% of the book or one full 
chapter, whichever is most.


That may be in conflict with Copyright permissions (I have in mind a rule of 
thumb that is closer to 10%), so we could need to adjust the percentage.  I've 
copied in James, our ILL Librarian, as he's most familiar with both Copyright 
law on this point, and actual practice.  


I think Bob expressed it well when he said the chapter should be the basic ILL 
unit of a book (instead of percentage of pages, for example).

-Selden

>>> David Parker <david.parker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 6/16/2010 6:22 AM >>>
Maybe a percentage of the entire book along with a number of chapters? I say
this as we publish relatively short books on specific applied topics and
often five chapters constitutes the entire book.

David Parker
Publisher
Business Expert Press
201-673-8784


On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Selden Lamoureux <selden_lamoureux@xxxxxxxx 
> wrote:

>
> Hey Bob.  Thanks!  Well spoken, as always.  It sounds like it could be
> implemented pretty easily once the numbers were pinned down.   I wonder if
> we could get together and talk a little more about just what the number of
> chapters per year(s) would work.  I'll give you a call.
>
>
>
> The next is a bit of an aside, since I've always been fuzzy about CONTU
> guidelines.  I just Googled them and found this from the Copyright Clearance
> Center (
> http://www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/content/ill_contu.html): 
>
> 1.  CONTU Guidelines for copying from periodicals apply only to materials
> less than five years old (referred to as part of the "rule of five").
>
> 2.  Up to five articles may be copied from a single periodical in one
> calendar year under the ILL provision (referred to as part of the "rule of
> five").
>
> 3.  A library with a subscription for a periodical which is not immediately
> available may consider a copy obtained from another library as if made from
> its own collection.
>
> 4.  All ILL requests must be accompanied by a copyright compliance
> statement from the requesting library. The requesting library must maintain
> records of all requests and of their fulfillment. These records must be kept
> for three calendar years after the request has been made.
>
> 5.  No more than six copies of articles/chapters/small portions may be made
> from a non-periodical (including a book) during the entire term of copyright
> of the work.
>
>
> I would have passed the test if quizzed on the first 2 points, but didn't
> have any idea about #5.  Is this the common interpretation of CONTU
> Guidelines?  How would anyone be able to track that over the length of the
> copyright (especially since records are required for only 3 years)?  I think
> Bob is right to suggest something like CONTU but not CONTU itself.  We might
> also need the ILL experts to weigh in on their practice with ILL and print
> books when copying is involved (it requires estimating the percentage of a
> book copied if I remember correctly)
>
>
> Anyway, thanks so much for raising the question.  It certainly comes at a
> good time.
>
>
> Selden
>
>
> >>> "Boissy, Robert, Springer US" <Robert.Boissy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 6/15/2010
> 5:35 PM >>>
>  I would recommend chapter-level eBook ILL as the standard loan.
>
> There are commercial models for whole book loans for 30 day periods, so
> that would be treading into the commercial zone.
>
> I would also recommend limits on # of eBook chapters per book per borrowing
> library, especially for recent content.  Some kind of CONTU limits. The main
> theme of ILL and shared understandings like CONTU is that when a certain
> amount of fair lending has been done to a borrowing library from the same
> resource, the borrowing library really must make their own purchase.
>
> Five chapters from the same book by the same library within a x year period
> from publication of the eBook?
>
> -Bob
> Sent from my Blackberry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Selden Lamoureux <selden_lamoureux@xxxxxxxx>
> To: David Parker <david.parker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Oliver Pesch <
> OPesch@xxxxxxxxx>; Boissy, Robert, Springer US
> Cc: Jody Atkinson <J.Atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Tim Williams <
> tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Carol A Ficken <
> cficken@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tue Jun 15 16:40:55 2010
> Subject: Re: [seruinfo] SERU and ILL
>
>
> Hi. Apologies for joining the discussion late, but like David, I'm not
> entirely sure how SERU works for e-book ILL.  Like Bob, however, I'm hoping
> that it can.
>
>
> SERU was originally conceived of as an alternative to licensing e-journals,
> especially from small publishers who lacked the resources to hire lawyers to
> create a license,  and staff to negotiate and process changes.  The SERU
> working group, however, very deliberately left the SERU document flexible
> enough to allow it to be adapted to whatever situations libraries and
> publishers were comfortable with.
>
>
> Much to my surprise SERU has gotten some very good support from large
> publishers. (My library has successfully used SERU for Springer e-Books as
> well as a multi-year consortial journal deal, something I never expected.)
>
>
> ILL, however, poses special challenges.  It was relatively easy to move
> from print to online journal articles, since the ILL secure transmission
> process is identical once the copy is made and there are well established
> norms (CONTU Guidelines being one codification of them).  But books are
> another matter.  There is no expectation that a book will be copied (as
> would an article), and I'm not sure what it means to lend a copy of an
> e-book.  One of the major differences between ILL for e-journals and ILL for
> e-books is we don't have years of experience lending e-books, and there
> hasn't been a chance for a common understanding to grow.
>
>
> I'd love to follow up on e-book ILL.  While it doesn't look like there's
> any shared understanding at the moment, it'd be great to have the
> conversations that will establish one.
>
>
> I have talked with our ILL Librarian, James Harper, about just this topic.
>  In general, he thought he would be most likely to lend article-like e-book
> chapters but not an entire e-book.  I have been meaning to corner Bob and
> ask him about his notions of how ILL would work with the Springer e-books
> ... Bob, this might just be the moment!
>
> Selden
> ********************************************
> Selden Durgom Lamoureux
> Electronic Resources Librarian
> North Carolina State University Libraries
> Campus Box 7111
> Raleigh, NC 27695-7111
>
> phone:  919-513-2728
> fax:  919-515-7282
> email:  selden_lamoureux@xxxxxxxx 
> ********************************************
>
>
> >>> "Boissy, Robert, Springer US" <Robert.Boissy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 6/14/2010
> 12:55 PM >>>
> An interesting point David, as we make our content available the same
> way.  But the combination of copyright law, fair use, and the statement
> by the National Commission on New Technological Uses of Copyright Works
> (CONTU) still applies to the ILL environment.
> http://www.cni.org/docs/infopols/CONTU.html ;
>
>
>
> ILL also costs time and money for both the lender and borrower.
>
>
>
> In the USA, we feel there is a well understood, self-regulating
> environment.  Countries with similar environments are suitable for SERU
> use.  Some countries are not suitable, and we would likely turn down
> requests to use SERU in some countries.  I will leave these countries
> un-named.  Conditions can always change.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if the CONTU statements have ever been updated (aside
> from SERU itself)?
>
>
>
> -Bob
>
>
>
> Robert W. Boissy
>
> Springer
>
> Tel: +1 781 244 7918
>
> robert.boissy@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
>
>
>
> From: seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of David Parker
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 12:45 PM
> To: Oliver Pesch
> Cc: Tim Williams; Ficken,Carol A; Jody Atkinson; lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Subject: Re: [seruinfo] Cost?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I apologize if this question is reaching you twice as I chimed in on
> another similar threaded discussion. We are a relatively new publisher
> do concise e-books on business topics which we offer as a perpetual,
> unlimited use, no-DRM collection and we are signed on with SERU, but I
> am somewhat concerned about the inter library loan function in the SERU.
> For an e-book publisher with an easily replicable product and no DRM
> wrapped around it, inter library loan could, in the extreme, mean one
> library could supply endless libraries with our books.
>
>
> David Parker
> Publisher
> Business Expert Press
> 201-673-8784
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Oliver Pesch <OPesch@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> We had a situation at EBSCO where a government institution was being
> told by their higher-ups that the librarians were not authorized to
> enter into legal contracts on behalf of the government (e.g. signing a
> publisher license agreement was no longer an option)... We recommended
> SERU and that turned out to be the answer. Because with SERU there is no
> license to sign --  problem solved!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>
> Of Tim Williams
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 10:25 AM
> To: Ficken,Carol A; Jody Atkinson; lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>
> Subject: Re: [seruinfo] Cost?
>
> Hi all
>
> I agree with Carol
>
> We adopted SERU for our new journal of Human Rights and the Environment
> (www.e-elgar.co.uk/jhre) after we had feedback from a librarian at a
> major
> university that it would allow them to subscribe immediately rather than
> spend time negotiating and waiting for a committee to approve the
> license
> agreement.
>
> Tim Williams
>
>
> --
> NEW: Journal of Human Rights & the Environment - download the first
> issue
> free www.e-elgar.com/jhre 
> --
> Tim Williams
> Managing Director
> Edward Elgar Publishing Ltd
>
> The Lypiatts,  15 Lansdown Road,  Cheltenham,  GL50 2JA  |  Tel: +44
> (0)1242
> 226934  |  A family business in international publishing
> Edward Elgar Publishing Limited is registered in the UK at the above
> address. Registered number: 2041703
>
>
>
> On 6/14/10 1:44 PM, "Ficken,Carol A" <cficken@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > We (University of Akron) are registered with SERU, and I do use it
> when
> > possible.  More publishers are registering and it does save time
> (money).  At
> > a recent NASIG conference a representative of a small publisher that
> is
> > registered with SERU said she pushed very hard with their legal person
> who
> > finally accepted it.  Also, she said that when I am trying to license
> with a
> > small publisher, I should direct them to SERU and ask if they would
> register
> > since she believes many of the small publishers are unaware of SERU or
> the
> > savings of it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carol Ficken
> >
> > Coordinator, Library Acquisitions
> >
> > University Libraries
> >
> > Bierce Library - Acquisitions
> >
> > University of Akron
> >
> > Akron, OH 44325-1708
> >
> > Phone:  330.972.7296
> >
> > Fax:  330.972.5132
> >
> > Email:  cficken@xxxxxxxxxx 
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jody
> > Atkinson
> >
> > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 3:48 AM
> >
> > To: lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >
> > Subject: RE: [seruinfo] Cost?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thankyou to everyone who replied!
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm hoping we do use SERU, even if the number of publishers (at the
> >
> > moment) is not large.  Hopefully the  numbers will grow.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Jody
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Linda Wobbe [mailto:lwobbe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
> >
> > Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 11:26 AM
> >
> > To: Jody Atkinson; seruinfo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >
> > Subject: Re: [seruinfo] Cost?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope you give SERU a try. For ages we've complained about wasting
> time
> >
> >
> >
> > with licenses. Here is a standard way to do away with them which
> >
> > preserves fair use rights!
> >
> >
> >
> > We are registered, as is the consortium I work with, SCELC. I can
> >
> > confirm there is no cost. SCELC has worked with several publishers who
> >
> > are registered with SERU, including Springer and Project Euclid. I
> just
> >
> > wish more publishers would join!
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Linda
> >
> >
> >
> > Linda Wobbe Head, Collection Management/ Saint Mary's College Library/
> >
> > 1928 Saint Mary's Road/ Moraga, CA 94583-4290/ ph(925)631-4232;
> >
> > fx(925)376-6097
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/13/10 6:57 PM, Jody Atkinson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Hello
> >
> >>
> >
> >> My library has asked me to look into SERU to determine if we want to
> >
> >> use it. I can't find anything that refers to any cost involved in
> >
> >> signing up or using SERU - can someone confirm that it is free to use
> >
> > it?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> I would also be interested in hearing from other libraries using
> SERU.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Do you find it useful? Are many publishers / vendors you subscribe
> >
> >> from willing to use it?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Thankyou
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Jody Atkinson
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Resources and Access
> >
> >> Curtin University Library
> >
> >> Tel: 08 9266 4081
> >
> >> Email : j.atkinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >
> >>
> >
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